Interviewer:
All
We Shall Know
is your third novel and fourth book of fiction. Your first
two novels, The Spinning Heart, which won the Guardian
First Book Award among other prizes, and The Thing About
December, received great acclaim in Ireland in the UK.
It’s safe to say, however, that you’re lesser
known here in the US. What should American readers expect
picking up All We Shall Know, as it most likely will
be their introduction to your writing?
Donal Ryan: They can expect to encounter a very flawed
and very self-aware narrator in Melody Shee, and to listen
to her description of her atomised marriage, her seduction
of a student, her betrayal of a childhood friend and her desperate
struggle for redemption. Melody is pregnant by her young lover,
and the book charts the weeks of her pregnancy. Melody lives
in a small Irish town and the cadence of the characters’
speech, their colloquial concerns, their dark humour, are
specific in form but universal in essence. We all live in
small groups; we’re all villagers. I’ve seen Melody
described by readers and critics as hateful, disgusting, irredeemable
– personally, I love her, I think she’s a proper
hero. Either way, her story seems to grip people tightly,
and leave a strong impression. I try to write books I’d
love to read myself, and I love books where the distance between
me and the characters is reduced almost to nothing; where,
as Marc Bolan so memorably put it in Spaceball Ricochet,
“the writer talks to me like a friend.”
Interviewer:
Even with all of the critical acclaim you’ve garnered
over the last few years, you recently made headlines back
home by returning to work full time in the civil service to
pay the bills. It sounds romantic in the way that poet Wallace
Stevens sold insurance his whole life while writing at night,
but your decision seems entirely necessary and a practical.
Would you mind talking a bit about the struggles of being
a writer?
Donal
Ryan: I’m afraid I kicked a big old hornet’s
nest when I told a local paper I’d be returning to my
job from a three-year sabbatical this coming April and the
‘story’ was picked up by national papers in Ireland
and the UK. People seemed to think I was complaining, even
though I actually said things like “I couldn’t
be luckier”, “my life is great”, “I
love my job”. Worse, people very kindly expressed sympathy,
when I sought, and am deserving of, none. My point was, even
having been paid comparatively large advances, I couldn’t
take the risk at this point of resigning my job, as I have
two young children and twenty more years of a mortgage to
pay. Or maybe I could take the risk but I’m just not
brave enough. Maybe next year I’ll sell a million books,
maybe I’ll always be a sales-plodder, maybe my next
three books will flop completely, maybe I’ll do a huge
film deal. Whatever happens, I’ll write on, because
I love being a writer. Even on sabbatical I’ve been
working as a creative writing teacher in the Frank McCourt
School of Creative Writing at the University of Limerick and
so I’ve never been that strange and wondrous thing,
a full-time writer. Nor can I ever imagine being one. I think
I’d go mad. I write in the early morning and re-write
in the late evening and that’s the way I’ve always
done it. I do get a bit hermit-like and weird for the last-draft-dash:
it’s only ever a few weeks but I take temporary leave
of work and the world and I lock my office door and I stop
answering the phone and I don’t shave and I drink a
little too much and I eat junk and then when the book feels
finished I emerge, pasty-faced and overweight and hungover,
squinting against the light, and I apologise to my family
and friends, and I get back to normal, whatever that is.
Interviewer:
The journey to signing your first book deal was years
in the making. Can you tell us how you first came to be published?
Donal
Ryan: My wife did it. First of all she reminded me that
I was a writer. A writer who didn’t write very much.
A writer who was all talk and no words. When we first met
I lived in an old apartment in a quiet suburb, and I was mostly
alone except for a ghost who lived there too, and I was an
administrator by day, a total walking cliché of frustrated
artisthood, and I was excited about fiction and I was idealistic
and brimming with ideas, and I had time and space and motivation
to write, and every word I put on paper rang discordant in
my ear. I burned short stories in the sink. I deleted whole
novels. I was so bad, bad, bad at it. All my sentences made
me feel physically sick. Then I met Anne Marie and she told
me I actually wasn’t that bad at it, I just had to try
harder and to look more kindly at my own work. Thank God for
her. So I wrote a novel called The Thing About December
to impress her and to show her there was more to my artistic
pretensions than hot air and big ideas. She fell head over
heels in love with the main character, a tongue-tied loner
with a beautiful heart called Johnsey Cunliffe. Then she made
me write a second novel, so I did—The Spinning Heart,
a polyphonic work set in the same village ten years later
as our infamous Celtic tiger became roadkill. Then she bought
me a thing called The Writers’ and Artist’s
Yearbook and insisted that I buy a printer and a wheelbarrow
full of stamps and start sending manuscripts to every single
agent and publisher listed therein, and I did, and most of
them didn’t reply, and the ones that did all said no
(except an agent in Indiana called Tracy Brennan) and finally,
three years after I started out on my fool’s errand,
I got a call from The Lilliput Press, a small but legendary
independent press in Dublin, and they offered to publish my
two novels, and they sold UK and commonwealth rights to Doubleday
and US rights to Steerforth Press and foreign language rights
all over the world and Anne Marie and I did not know what
had hit us. It was, as Brian from The Spinning Heart would
say, unreal craic.
Interviewer:
From Jonathan Swift to James Joyce, Oscar Wilde to Samuel
Beckett, Ireland has produced some of the most influential
and stylistically distinct writers in the history of literature.
Which Irish authors have influenced your storytelling?
Donal
Ryan: I actually think they all have, inasmuch as we
tend to unconsciously distil our reading lives into our writing
lives. Not all influences are positive: I revered John McGahern
to the point where I thought: there’s no point to this;
everything I do has been done, better, by McGahern. I read
Joyce’s Ulysses at 16 in an effort to impress my English
teacher because I was in love with her, and this sentence
has been ringing in my head ever since, and insinuating itself
into the position of benchmark for each of my paltry lines:
“On his wise shoulders through a checkerwork of leaves
the sun flung spangles, dancing coins.” Just look at
it. Throwaway. Observational.
Unnecessary
to plot (although this is Ulysses, where most things are unnecessary),
vaguely sarcastic about the subject, yet breath-taking –
literally, it winds me. But you have to do your best to leave
your heroes behind and find your own voice. Ineluctable is
this simple truth: to be a writer you first must read, and
read, and read. Then you have to write and write and write.
You have to hear all the other voices before you find your
own. Kurt Vonnegut said it takes five years to find your own
voice, to write your heroes out of your hand. It took me ten.
Interviewer:
Do you admire any American authors—living or dead—who’ve
informed your writing?
Donal
Ryan: I’ve read every word Stephen King has ever
written. I love his style; it seems so easy and conversational,
casual, almost, while he’s winding these stories around
you, suffocating you, drawing your body and soul into the
pages. He is the king. I love Joseph Wambaugh also, especially
The Choirboys. Flannery O’Connor and Alice
Munro are two of my favourite short story writers. John Irving’s
The World According to Garp seems to me to be exactly
what a novel ought to be. My parents loved the mid-century
Americans and our house was always full of Steinbeck and Hemingway
and the later twentieths like Mailer and Bellow and Salinger
and Updike. I read Norman Mailer’s The Executioner’s
Song far too young. He describes the blood on the laces
of Gary Gilmore’s white prison-issue trainers after
he’s executed by firing squad. I thought about that
image for days; I became obsessed. I was deeply troubled by
the image, by the fact of this thing, and intensely interested
in idea that this man who lived thousands of miles away had
written these words, and these words had formed a picture
in my head that I couldn’t shake off, and the experience
definitely informed my idea of myself as a writer. And thinking
of Mailer I think of someone he punched: Gore Vidal, whose
novel Kalki seemed to me to be the cleverest thing
in the world, and hilarious.
Interviewer:
All
We Shall Know
is
told in the voice of Melody Shee, a reading and writing tutor,
who, after an affair with a seventeen-year-old boy, chronicles
her shocking pregnancy. Male authors writing in a female voice
is often met with skepticism and criticism. But here, you
paint a rather strikingly complex portrait of a brave, yet
very flawed woman. Irish author Christine Dwyer Hickey praised
the book by saying “…at last!—we have a
man writing a woman’s point of view in a totally convincing
and non-patronizing way.” Why did you decide to tell
this particular story from the voice of Melody? What were
the challenges in writing in a female voice?
Donal
Ryan: When it comes to writing I charge head-first at
everything and I never think about risk or the size or nature
of the challenge before me. If I thought too much I’d
think myself into chickening out. The way I see it, people
like my brother John, who’s a policeman, risk their
actual lives every working day. People protect their fellow
citizens, fight fires, fight in wars, go on rescue missions,
travel to the darkest and most dangerous reaches of this earth
to help others. I sit in a nice chair hitting keys. I’m
an artist in the free world: there’s no real risk for
me, except of a bruised ego or a temporarily wounded heart.
I feel like a real fraud when people say I was brave to write
from a woman’s perspective. People will either feel
it’s right or wrong. Fiction is an act of unreasonable
empathy; a stretching of the notion of empathy beyond its
natural tolerance; it’s also a series of guesses, some
informed, some less so, some downright wild. That’s
the beauty and the thrill and the (very slight) danger of
it. And in a way it’s impossible to be wrong: as my
father says, “Human beings are fit for anything.”
Interviewer:
The father of Melody’s unborn child is Martin
Toppy, a Traveller boy. For those who may be unfamiliar, can
you describe Traveller culture and explain why you chose to
write about this particular marginalized group?
Donal
Ryan: Irish Travellers number around 30,000 in this
country, but they have a substantial diaspora. They’re
a nomadic people with a distinct language, Shelta, an English-based
derivative dialect of which is still in use called Cant. Up
until recently, official Ireland has pursued a policy of integration:
it was commonly believed that Travellers were ‘set on
the road’ during the Great Famine, having been cast
from their smallholdings and labourers’ cottages. Recent
research shows their origins are pre-Celtic, that they may
be ‘the original Irish’ and that they travelled
the roads long long before the famine. Unfortunately, we’ve
always been afflicted with strict stratification of ‘classes’
in Ireland—we hadn’t the wit or the vision or
the strength or the will as a young nation to stamp on the
idea, to break the hegemony of so-called ‘middle-class
respectability’ propagated and perpetuated by the clergy
and ‘the professions’. Travellers came to be seen
as a type of underclass, a problem to be solved. Fortunately
they’ve very recently been recognised officially as
an ethnic minority. Travellers tend to marry young, to have
large families, and to be deeply spiritual. Traveller society
is riven with strife: their life expectancy is far blow the
national median, their suicide rate is terrifyingly high,
and their relationship with the settled community is often
fractious. Things are changing, though, and conversations
are starting, and we’re starting to appreciate them
again. My mother tells me how the tinker man was warmly welcomed
to her father’s farm, not just because of his expertise
as a tinsmith and a horse-whisperer, but because of the invisible
cloak of magic that swathed him and his family, their otherworldliness,
the presumption that these people were literally of the earth,
and could harness its unknowable powers for good or ill. Time
and societal change and impaired national memory left the
tinker behind and forced him from the road. I based the character
of Martin Toppy on a Traveller I worked with in a factory
over twenty years ago and the character of Mary Crothery on
a Traveller girl I once kind of knew, who told me she’d
been cast out from her family: she still lived in their compound
in a local halting site, but, she said, “there’s
none of them talking to me.” I gathered this had something
to do with a broken marriage or engagement, some kind of unrealised
collateral, and that she was (figuratively, I hope, though
I’m not sure) “after causing murder.”
Interviewer:
Although set in present day, All
We Shall Know
recalls the great tragedies of Shakespeare—the warring
factions within the Traveller community brings to mind the
Capulets and Montagues in Romeo & Juliet. Do you see All
We Shall Know as a tragedy?
Donal
Ryan: I suppose it could be put in that literary category,
although I’m always a bit suspicious of categories!
I suppose it contains some of the elements of a tragedy in
the Shakespearian sense: a flawed hero, a downfall –
although Melody’s heroic nature isn’t evident
until the end and her downfalls have happened before we arrive
in the story, so maybe it’s an inverted tragedy. I hadn’t
consciously considered the Montagues and Capulets when writing
about the warring families, but they must have been somewhere
in my mind. I remember reading the play in class, and trying
so hard not to cry when Mercutio died. Crying over a play
would have been a seriously bad move in my school. It affected
me far more intensely than the ending, I’m not sure
exactly why. Maybe because he was such a loyal friend to Romeo,
and such a joker. I joked my way through school. Mercutio
is even a smartass in his terminal moment: “Ask for
me tomorrow and you’ll find me a grave man.” Not
a great joke, admittedly, but still, what a character.
Interviewer:
What do you want people to take away from reading All
We Shall Know?
Donal
Ryan: One of the core ideas for me that I tried to express
when writing that novel was that our actions often belie our
natures. At first look Melody is an horrendous human being.
She’s wilfully destroyed her husband’s spirit;
she’s seduced a boy half her age; she’s betrayed
her dearest friend; she’s neglected her loving father.
But she’s aware of her faults and the terrible mistakes
she’s made, she’s open and insightful and, somehow,
very empathetic. She knows how to be good, how easy it is
to fail in that endeavour, she knows how love works and she
knows too well the fragile mechanics of human connection,
how easy it is to let things get broken. She knows that the
single most important thing a person can do is be kind. |